[0:55] Music.

[1:07] Pat Sweet here and welcome to Episode 13 of the Engineering and Leadership podcast, the show dedicated to helping engineers thrive. In today’s episode,

I chat with Sol Rosenbaum of theengineeringmentor.com about getting your next job in the midst of a pandemic.

[1:24] Hello, everyone. Pat Sweet here and thank you so much for joining me today.
I’m really, really excited to share with you a conversation that I recently had with Sol Rosenbaum.
He’s got some excellent advice for anyone looking for a job right now, which, frankly, could very well be many of you. So I’m really excited to be sharing this advice with you today.
But before we get started, I wanted to touch on something.
If you haven’t connected with me on LinkedIn already, do it.
I’d love to chat with you. I am having an awful lot of fun, uh, talking to people who are fans of this show, people who are interested in my work. So please do, do reach out.
I’ll be putting a link to my profile in the show notes. So stay tuned for that.
And if you’re not already subscribe to my newsletter, subscribe, I email a newsletter weekly to share exclusive content for subscribers.
Give you first crack at special events and resources that I create. So again, I’ll share a link with you in the show notes.
All you have to do is go to engineeringandleadership.com/episode 13 and you’ll find everything I’ve mentioned there.
Okay, let’s turn our attention to the main content for today.

[2:28] Music.

[2:39] Following a bachelor’s and then a master’s degree in science in mechanical engineering from Colombia University, Sol launched his career in energy engineering.
Over the next 18 years, he dedicated himself to energy management and has held various roles, both in corporate settings and in independent practice.
Over that time, Sol has become a professional engineer licensed in both Maryland and New York, a certified energy manager and, most recently, a Green Globes professional.
In 2018 he launched theengineeringmentor.com, as way to give back to the engineering community.
The blog focuses on networking, education and soft skills specifically geared toward engineers.
Here’s my conversation with Sol.

Thank you so very, very much for joining me here today. I really appreciate you taking the time.

[3:25] My pleasure. I’m happy to help out where I can.

[3:29] Excellent. Excellent. So I brought you on the show today –
We connected, over LinkedIn, and I’ve been reading an awful lot of material that you had put out related to helping engineers get work and navigate the whole application process,
interviews the whole bit, and I thought that especially with,
the coronavirus pandemic, a lot of people are struggling with their work situation right now, that would be an excellent time,
to get some some advice, some input on on on what to do during these trying times.
So the first thing I wanted to touch base on is what’s what’s different right now. How how has the pandemic changed the way someone ought to approach looking for work as an engineer?

[4:16] Right. It’s a very good question because I think that a lot of, especially the engineers, are getting out of engineering school now,

[4:24] they have this mentality of, you know, online applications, and that’s really the only mode that they’re used to.
So in some senses, it doesn’t change a whole lot. They still can use that.
But if you’ve been reading my material, you see a lot, a lot of my focus is really on, kind of going back to the old school method of really having connections, really knowing people.

[4:46] And I find that you really get much better results than you do with online connections because the person really knows you.
They really know what you’re about and where you can fit into their company, and that’s a big problem
in this day and age where you don’t have networking events, you don’t have those natural places where you’re bumping into people or meeting them, they definitely put more effort forward in the pandemic.
But with things like LinkedIn with other online platforms, you definitely can make those connections.
You just have to be a little bit more, you know, out there really trying to do it.
That’s all. Right. So and in order to build these connections, that that takes time, right?
I imagine that one of the things you you preach or rather I’ve read you preach is you’ve got to make those connections before you are looking for a job.
So how would you recommend people start to to reach out to others?
Especially especially online? Because that, like you said, is really the only way right at the moment
to start developing relationships without necessarily looking for anything right now. How does that look?

[5:58] Right. Well, absolutely. First of all, I agree. 100%. You should be networking now, regardless of whether you’re looking for a job.
And you know, I personally compared to, you know, a hurricane, you always prepared for the hurricane.
Well, before it comes, you wanna have the supplies, you wanna have those things there. You’re not gonna go running out as the hurricane is bearing down on your city.
One of the things that you know, you gotta keep in mind understanding that is that if you just go to somebody and say, hey, do you have a a job for me, you know do you have any openings.
If that person says no, the conversation just ended, and you really got nowhere.
So the focus should really be trying to develop a connection, seeing if they can offer some general guidance.
So you’re reaching out to them just for that general help as opposed to for a job, specifically.

[6:48] But the truth is like, if somebody comes to me and they say, Hey, I’m looking for a job in the energy engineering field, you know,
how would you say would go about it, if I have that job
I’ll certainly have that in my mind. and offer that to them. We’re talking about the position so it doesn’t preclude it from being discussed.
But if you only ask about the job, you really could be selling yourself short, right?
So what kinds of things might might you advise someone reach out and ask about, if not if not for a job directly? What – what kind of things could you do to make that connection?

[7:23] Right. So the first thing I would dio is look at the person’s profile if you can find them on Instagram.
If you can find them on Facebook, get to know a little bit about the person that you’re reaching out to because you might have some connection there.
Aside from the fact that you’re both interested in energy and engineering, you’re both interested in civil engineering.
If you could find those connections, you’ll be much farther ahead of the competition.
So, for example, I’ve had people who see that I have book recommendations on my websites.
If they have enjoyed a similar book, they’re gonna have that connection automatically.
It’s like sort of that in that they’ll have, And the focus doesn’t have to be on just technical items. Obviously, I need somebody with the technical expertise, but you have sort of that natural affinity.

[8:16] It’s kind of like you have you ever like a cousin that reaches out after years, or maybe even a cousin’s kid who you really don’t know because they live across the country but like they call you up and they say, Hey, could you help me out?
I’m trying to get into engineering you’re gonna help that guy out, even though they’re sort of a stranger.
But because you have that connection as a cousin, so if you can find those connections, you know, obviously relatives is a good one. But anybody went to the same school, as you?
That’s an instant connection, because they could talk about that same professor.
You could tell them how the school has changed over the years and they’ll kind of reminisce about these things.
So if you could get that connection, you don’t look for it on there like the picture actually read their profile, see the path that they have gone and then reach out to them.

[9:07] Again, looking for guidance, not specifically looking for a job, right?
I think that’s great advice and actually I was a little bit distracted as you’re speaking, because I noticed a Patrick Lencioni book on your bookshelf up up on the wall there, and I thought to myself, Oh, we have to talk about that at the end of the interview.
It’s amazing how quickly you can make those connections if you just bothered to look.
So what, what can you do to maybe attract people to want to connect with you.
Right? We’ve talked a little bit about you being active. What – what can you do to make yourself available to people who might be interested in you and what you’re about?
Because it’s still a connection. Right? Right. Absolutely.
You know, it is very difficult for a younger engineer to kind of have people coming towards them.
I’d like to tell people when they’re writing their profile on LinkedIn instead of having a bullet point list. You know, I could do AutoCAD. I can do REVIT. I can do you know these,
these types of skills. Try to make it a story making, engaging, you know, Why did you get interested in engineering?
Did you have a family member that perhaps was in that field and you got excited by it? What was your path to this point?

[10:23] And you can also talk about you know how Perhaps maybe an internship or job change your way of looking at things.
It really humanizes you, makes you a little bit different. Stand out,
because I can look online and find, you know, 5000 people who have a bachelor’s degree in mechanical engineering or interested in energy, the energy engineering world. But what makes you different?
And the other thing you have to avoid using, like jargon, like a lot of those words. Like, you know, I’m a go getter.
Well, nobody’s gonna write, you know? Hey, I’m sort of lazy, but, you know, whatever. I wanna make money.
Nobody’s gonna write that. So it’s sort of a little meaningless when they just right, I’m a go getter.
You could say you enjoy challenges and then give an example. But don’t just use the words they become a little meaningless.
Yeah, absolutely. And I know I’ve been on the receiving end of people explaining that they’re go getters and that they’re ambitious, and I want as an interviewer to know more,
and if you don’t have anything at the ready to say, here’s an example of this or here’s something I’m interested in,
that falls really flat, really quick. It’s hard.
It’s damaging to your credibility in a way right now, Absolutely. I think the other one that a lot of people talk about their like I’m really goal driven.
You’re like, That’s really cool. So you know what? What, what what goals do you have?

[11:50] And blank. Like you just said, You’re goal driven. I’m just sort of following up on your statement.
You know, you have to have something there and the, you know, it’s funny when you talk about you know what goals you have your go get or things like that.

[12:05] As the interviewer, you don’t really care what they say.
You’re just you’re following about what they said. Okay, any goal would have been good there anyway, which you showed that initiative would have been a good answer.
The specifics of it don’t matter, but they don’t have that.
You know, they missed. Sort of miss that opportunity. Absolutely. So So let’s talk a little bit about the whole interview process, right?
I think I think there’s a lot a lot out there with respect to you know what constitutes a good resume. Good cover letter.
A lot of the engineers that I’ve coached and managed over the years have a really hard time with the interview, though.
Is is there anything you you commonly see in terms of, like repeated mistakes or issues or poor preparation?
What’s the one thing or two things you would say like please, like, stop doing that right.
Well, I think that, you know, for starters, talk to some people who have recently graduated in your field and find out some of the common question and prep your answers.
You know, if you kind of go through those answers in your mind and have stories to back it up, you know, the worst thing for an interviewer or interviewee I should say, You know, you walk out of that interview and, like, Oh, I should have shared that story.
I should have shared the time where, you know, X, Y and Z happened that backed up a certain skill.

[13:32] So if you have these things in your mind, you’re more apt to share them.
And I think it also helps somebody be a little less nervous Because, really, your your nerves that get you it’s the uncertainty.
You don’t know where this is going to go. You don’t know how you’re gonna come off.

[13:49] If you can. You know, perhaps on that beforehand, that will really help you out.
The other thing I think people need to recognize is that everybody who’s going for the same jobs, you they’re all gonna be a little bit nervous.
That’s OK, That’s normal.
Not, you know, not a big deal. Just try to be yourself and let them see.
You know, let them see your personality because your technical skills obviously matter.
But they also want to see how you would work with the team and what kind of person you are individually.
So if they see some personality, they see that, you know, you get excited about certain projects, you talk about how you like working with other people and give examples that can really go, you know, go the distance, Really help you out.
Absolutely. I would double down on that Really, really hard is one of the things that I look for when I’m hiring is how excited would I be for you to be on the team with me, right.
How excited would I be to show up to work and interact with you for 89 10 hours a day?
That’s That’s hugely important. Okay, so let’s let’s say let’s say you have an interview, right?
What do you do after the interview? Is it Is there anything you can do? Thio follow up to try and lock in the deal, so to speak. What would you What would you recommend?

[15:07] Right. Well, certainly I would send an email within a day or two like absolutely.
Now, the key with the email is not just to say Hey, thanks. I’m really interested in that job.
The key is to also bring back up specific points that you spoke about to show that you know, a you’re listening. It was actually a conversation between the two people there in the room.

[15:32] But also Thio say once again Hey, you know, you mentioned X, Y and Z and here’s you know, where I think I can fit in that I’m really excited about this opportunity.
You can also use this as an opportunity to t to kind of bring up items that you may have for gotten in the interview.
That works well. The one thing also that ah lot of people get stuck in is they send these emails when they send these letters to the HR rep,
the HR rep, maybe sort of the person who’s handling the process, but they’re not the person who is making the decision.
So you really want to make sure you’re sending this to the actual hiring manager, the manager who you’re probably work under them or on their team.
They know what they need for the job. So it’s really important to reach out thing that has come a lot with regard to this.
A lot of unfortunately, a lot of candidates get ghosted and they’re like, I haven’t heard back from anybody.
At what point can I reach out again?
And I listen if you haven’t heard by the next week sending another message?
There have been many times where the HR rep accidentally sent a message to, you know, the wrong email address or they had the wrong phone number. You know, they just accidentally put something to the side.
Don’t leave it to chance or their accidental, you know, oversight to miss this job.
So definitely follow up again in another week. If you haven’t heard.

[16:55] I would say, if you still haven’t heard you can followup in another three weeks.
But at some point, you have to realize that unfortunately, you’re probably not getting the job.
If you haven’t heard back in more than four weeks, that’s pretty definite. Yeah, that makes sense. And I mean, you have to remember too as a candidate that someone is looking to hire people onto their team, likely because they’re swamped.
They’re really busy, folks. Um, yeah. So reaching out and touching base and being present, I think I think that’s all phenomenal advice.
Um, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk a bit about under-
How do you understand the kinds of roles and the kinds of companies that you might want to target in the first place?
Right. I know a lot of engineers, especially early in their career, are happy just for ah, job paycheck. They want to deal with the student loans and move on with life.
And certainly that was where I was when I came out of engineering school and, in retrospect, a little bit disappointed in myself that I wasn’t more thoughtful about my approach because it’s it’s an important any any

[18:09] time in your career. Where you’re looking for a job is an important inflection point. So what would you recommend?
Particularly to younger engineers in terms of being thoughtful being more intentional about about their job search.

[18:25] Right. Well, I think I’m gonna start with one of your points there about people taking any job or anything.
I don’t want to minimize that because obviously we’re in a economic issue economic downturn.
So let’s assume it’s a little bit more of an ideal situation.
You’re not worried about paying your rent? You do have a little bit of flexibility – if you do need to take a job, Of course, take it.
But if you have the options, a few things to try. First of all, better for you,
Some people love bigger companies. They like the stability.
They like, the types of projects that a bigger company can offer. Other people prefer a smaller company because they want sort of more homey feel, and they wanna have more access to clients.
So kind of understanding, just some of those general variables. You know what works for you?

[19:15] Obviously, region is a big issue. You know, when I was an engineering school, one of the things I was thinking about was roller coaster design.
Now, I don’t know if that’s changed or not since then, but the time it was Florida, California and I believe it was Tennessee for some unknown reason and I had no interest in moving to any of those cities.
And so that kind of just got pushed to the wayside. I’m like, Okay, I’m not I’m gonna go through with that part of the field.
So once you have just this general things available to you, I think it’s really important to talk to engineers who have been out, you know, 5 years, 10 years Don’t go beyond that.
Because that now you’re talking about people who are significantly beyond where you are, and they’re not gonna remember all those little details.
The things they did, like the things they didn’t like and just talking about their daily job.

[20:09] What you have in your mind of what a mechanical engineer does every day is really broad, because it really depends on what field they’re working in,
you know, for example, for me, one of things I loved about my,
first job out of engineering school was that I got out into the field and I will be climbing through mechanical rooms one day and the next day I will be back in the office doing some calculations during the reports, and it really made it come alive to me.
I loved it. I was involved in those projects from, you know, that initial walk through all the way through construction and commissioning.
For me, that was really important. That really let me see the entire project.
There are other people who are totally fine working on one really specific area.

[20:54] And they have no problem becoming an absolute expert in that area, sitting in front of a computer every single day and they love it.
So there’s no one size fits all. I think it’s very important to reach out to those engineers who in the field and talking about their daily work and really see you know what it entails.
Yeah, I think I think that’s great advice again. And I think a theme has emerged through our conversation. Here is talk to people like real life people.
Googling is great, but there’s nothing quite like actually actually linking up with with someone and asking those questions.
And and in some ways you know that this conversation that we’re having right now was honestly, really pretty straightforward to set up.
You don’t need to lean on, uh, conferences and events and that kind of thing, which, as we’ve discussed, are not really happening now anyway. So I think I think this is all excellent.
Yeah, I think one of the things that’s also really good conferences are good.
Once you’re in your career, conferences are a great way to network and really develop your skills, have some more continuing education.
One of the things that can really be helpful, obviously, when in person things return is the individual chapters of your your engineering society.
Not, you know, they all have their national conventions and they all have their big annual thing, but it’s the local events they have.

[22:19] You know, some of them have, you know, a lunch and learn some of them will have an event one evening.
That’s where you’ll meet people in all stages of their career who live there working in the field.
Then you want to enter. They’re also living in the area
you wanna be in. Yeah, that’s that’s great advice. That’s great advice. There are people out there locally who want to connect with you, right?
You just honestly, you just have to show up.

[22:46] Um, listen, this has been ah, lot of fun, Sol.
I wanted to ask two – two more questions before we kind of wrap up.
The first: is there any other advice you would give to jobseekers right now in kind of the throws of the pandemic that maybe in your in your experience, in your practice, people aren’t,
catching on to any, you know, any any key nuggets that you’d wanna leave people with?
Yeah, I think that Ah, lot of people, when they hear networking, they start to think.
Okay, let me go in to LinkedIn, they type in the type of job they want, and that’s what they connect with.
But I think that you really need to have a really a mind shift. Just open up, open up the book.
Anybody could be a good connection. You know, I had one person who I connected with who is a secretary at a church just happened to meet her.
But her husband was in engineering, so you never know what their connections are.
And additionally, every engineering firm has an accountant. Every engineering firm has a receptionist. Every engineering firm has somebody in finance.
So while the people you meet may not specifically be the ones who could hire you, they could certainly help make that connection.
So definitely be open to that possibility.

[24:03] That’s great. That’s that’s really awesome advice. Thank you for that. So if people want to reach out to you, learn more about you and your work,
where’s the – where’s the best place for them to go? So the best place really is LinkedIn, I’m very active on there. You can search for Sol Rosenbaum, PE. Certainly find me there.
They can also check out my website, which is dedicated towards my mentoring work.
And that’s theengineeringmentor.com.
That’s fantastic and fantastic resources. I’ll absolutely vouch for what you post on LinkedIn and the website’s great, too. So, once again, Sol, thank you so much for making the time today, it’s a real pleasure.
My pleasure. I appreciate you having me on and feel free to reach out if I can be of further service to your client base? You bet. Thanks. All right.

[24:53] That again was my conversation with Sol Rosenbaum.
Very, very good advice. Thank you so much, Sol, for joining me on the podcast again. Some excellent advice that you’ve shared with community here.
If you’d like to learn more about Sol or check out his work again, you go to theengineeringmentor.com.
Or you can find the link to that site or his LinkedIn profile, both in my show notes.
Let’s turn now to the engineering and leadership mailbag.

[25:19] Music.

[25:29] This is the part of the show where I read your mail, your comments, tweets and messages and answer your questions.
I promise to read everything you send me, and I promise to share my favorites right here on the podcast.
First and foremost, thanks to everybody who wrote me on LinkedIn to suggest different ideas for my upcoming webinar series.
There were a ton of really, really good ideas, really diverse ideas, too. So I really appreciate that, and you can absolutely expect to see some of your ideas implemented in upcoming free Webinars. So do stay tuned for that.
Paul wrote say he recently discovered the podcast and to share that he had recently found new work after losing his job due to COVID-related budget cuts.
So, Paul, welcome to the engineering leadership community and congratulations on the new gig.
That’s really, really exciting news. It’s really great to hear that despite despite kind of a bad turn, you’re able to turn things around. So excellent work there again. Welcome.

[26:25] And one more note maybe, maybe more of a personal note. Congratulations to Jeff Perry of MoreThan-Engineering.com.
He and his wife recently welcomed a third little person into their lives back on August 28. So that’s wonderful news.
Jeff, as you already know, is a huge friend of this show and was actually my very first interview back in Episode 11.
You could check that out at engineeringandleadership.com/episode11.
And if you like this show, I definitely recommend Jeffs work as well so you could check out his work, as I mentioned at morethan-engineering.com.
So again, congratulations, Jeff. This week I’m going to do something a little bit different. Rather than ask a specific question of the week, I’d like to give you the opportunity to have your voice heard on the show. So here’s what we’re gonna do.
If you’ve got any thoughts on any of the advice that was given on the show, anything that you really, really liked anything, maybe that you didn’t like.
I love to hear about it, and I’d love to hear your thoughts here on the podcast. So I’ve set up kind of a voice mail system through my website.
All you have to do is go to engineeringandleadership.com/contact.

[27:35] And close to the top of that page. There will be a button for you to leave a voicemail, either through your computer mic or your phone.
So again, do check that out. Engineeringandleadership.com/contact and let me know what you think. And for those who do submit voicemail messages and they’re thoughtful,
and clean – we don’t we don’t want cursing here on this show –
I would absolutely love to put it up to put it up in the next podcast. So again, let me know what you think.
Engineeringandleadership.com/contact.

[28:13] That, my friends, is all the time we have for the show today.
Again, don’t forget to grab your copy of where to find engineering jobs at engineeringandleadership.com/findjobs.
And if you enjoy the show, please subscribe to it. Just click the subscribe button. That that way you’ll automatically get the each subsequent episode, and I try to release episodes weekly.
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And it would also be great if you could leave an honest review using whatever pod catcher that you use. Reviews really do help me to make the show better and help other people find the show as well, so again, please leave a review. That’d be a big help.

[28:54] If you want to read what you just heard, go to engineering and leadership dot com slash Episode 13.
There again, you will find the main content, all the links. I mentioned resources and can even download the transcript. Until next time,
this is Pat Sweet, reminding you that if you’re going to be anything, be excellent.

[29:12] Music.

[29:21] You’ve been listening to the engineering and leadership podcast with Pat Sweet.
If you’d like to learn more, go to engineeringandleadership.com, where you’ll find more free articles, podcasts and downloads to help engineers thrive.
That’s engineering and leadership dot com.

[29:38] Music.