Transcript

[0:00] For engineers whose resolved to grow is steadfast. This is the engineering and leadership podcast.

[0:07] Music.

[0:15] That sweet here and welcome to Episode 11 of the engineering and leadership podcast, the show dedicated to helping engineers thrive.
In today’s episode, we have our very first interview ever with engineering career coach Jeff Perry.
We’ll talk about imposter syndrome, what it is and how to beat it in your career.

[0:34] Music.

[0:40] Do you ever feel like you’re not really doing the work you want to be like You’ve got a job but not really a calling?
This happens to most engineers of one point or another in their career, and that’s why I wrote the passionate engineer how to take control of your career, do what you love and be successful.
It’s all about why it’s important to love your work, how to figure out what you’re really passionate about and how to find work that fits with what you love.
You could download a copy for free at engineering and leadership dot com slash passion.
It really is possible for you to love your work, and it’s important. Don’t become that old crusty engineer in the corner, just biding your time until retirement.
You definitely don’t want to be that guy.
So again you could learn how not to buy going to engineering and leadership dot com slash passion.

[1:27] Hello, everyone. And thank you so much for joining me again this week.
I’m very excited to share my very first interview on the podcast with you here today and again I know it said it the last couple episodes. But thank you so much for all your support, the mail, the feedback, everything.
It’s been awesome to be back podcasting and awesome to be interacting with you all.
It’s fantastic here. The sweet household, the return to school is nigh for our daughter.
It’s just around the corner, so that’s definitely on our mind right now. And I’m sure it is for you to for those of you who are parents anyway, so I hope you’re doing well. I hope everything is fine for you, wherever you are.
And whatever your situation during this pandemic, I hope you’re staying safe.
Listen, if ever you need anything, just a reminder. Please do drop me a line. I really, really love hearing from from you all.
And I know these air trying times career wise a lot of stress, lot of uncertainty. So please do feel free to drop me a line at Pat at engineering and leadership dot com.
Or you can book a time with me was set up a short meeting using an automated feature on my website.
All you have to do is go to engineering and leadership dot com slash meet.
Like I said, the world’s a bit of a crazy place right now, so there’s anything I can do to help. I absolutely love to.
Okay, let’s dig into the main content for today.

[2:47] Music.

[2:58] Today you’ll hear a conversation that I had with engineering career coach Jeff Perry from more than engineering dot com.
That’s more than dash engineering dot com, and it’s on a subject we’re all familiar with, even if we don’t really know the name for it.
And that thing is Imposter syndrome.

[3:18] Jeff founded more than engineering to help engineers and software professionals developed soft skills and improved their mindset toe unlock Hidden career potential.
After graduating with a degree in mechanical engineering from Brigham Young University, he’s held a number of technical, managerial and entrepreneurial roles, eventually becoming the director of modern cities and then the operations engineering manager at Meter Group.
Jeff also has an MBA from the University of Washington.
So without further ado, let’s turn my conversation with Jeff Jeff Perry. Thank you so so much for joining us today.
Really appreciate you. Ah, making the time to be on the show.
Yeah, things Pat happy to be here.
Excellent. I don’t know if you know this, but you’re the first the first guest on the engineering and leadership podcast Guest number 10 wow. Didn’t know that while it’s an honor, that’s for sure.
Excellent excellent. I know. I know people are going to enjoy hearing from you and drawing from your experience.
This is gonna be a lot of fun. So I’m excited about this today. We wanted to talk about Imposter syndrome and I reached out to you to ask you about this because you had just written not long ago a really interesting article about this.
Maybe you want to kind of set the scene a little bit. What? What is Imposter syndrome and why? Why would engineers care about it?

[4:31] Yes. So to put it simply the way that I think about imposter syndrome, it’s like this mindset of belief that I don’t belong or I’m not good enough that I’m in a position that I don’t deserve to be in.
And so often we get into these situations where an engineer’s kind of pride themselves on being really confident and and being really good at their jobs and being really technically proficient and whatnot.
But sometimes we all get into these stages of life where it’s new.
It’s uncomfortable, it’s things that were unfamiliar with, and when we step into that and we start going down these negative rabbit holes mentally the thinking like I am not right for this. I’m not sure if I can do this kind of a thing.
Then that’s when imposter syndrome really sets in, right? So it’s just it’s a snake negative headspace where you don’t feel like you belong.

[5:26] In which situations defined engineers kind of get get into this trap is at a certain point in their careers or certain roles they take on what when you should be. Well, we should be looking out for this kind of thing.

[5:39] Well, I mean, think about it. It’s been It’s really a pattern of life that we get into right?
Like where we’re always getting into these new situations on DSO engineers can think about it like, Hey, it’s a new job or a new company that they’re in, like they’re gonna be placed in new situations.
They’re gonna be unfamiliar. There’s gonna be maybe new technology and your systems certainly new processes that they’re gonna have to familiarise themselves with.
And so there’s stuff that they’re gonna be thinking like, Oh, I don’t know if I can do this because it’s hard at first.

[6:11] Certainly if someone goes through like a promotion situation may be making that shift from on individual contributor to a manager or a leader.
That’s a big shift that a lot of people feel imposter syndrome on because for engineers who are so technically proficient, they’re really good that the designer, the analysis or whatever they specialize in, and then they.

[6:35] Going to well, okay, Suddenly I don’t just own this piece of the technology or this piece of the design of this piece of this system.
Now, suddenly I have to manage the larger piece and help other people be successful.
Now they are relying on me and that pressure that they feel to really be that person and almost feel like they need to know everything and be everything to everyone,
that can really die them into this negative head space for a lot of people.
But, you know, we need to recognize that everyone feels this, and it’s kind of in every job or every new situation.
Anything that is uncomfortable pushing us out of our comfort zone could result in us feeling we’re diving into that imposter syndrome, right? Okay, so so what?
You know, I think there’s a certain element of needing to feel out new roles and feeling a little bit out of place.
How can you tell the difference between, you know, just finding your footing and really kind of being stuck in this in this negative headspace in a bad spot where your suffering from imposter syndrome, as opposed to just kind of learning the ropes.

[7:46] Yeah, sure. So I think it’s important to recognize that when you’re when you’re in a new situation, obviously there’s things you’re gonna need to learn and go through and that that’s normal and it’s and it’s okay for it.
And it’s great for actually engineer to say, Hey, I don’t know this but I have the confidence that I can learn it and be successful, right?
But where it gets into the imposter syndrome side is when we start to really dive into, like comparisons, right, there’s a lot of comparisons we can get into you of.
Let’s say you get promoted and you start immediately comparing yourself to someone who’s been in kind of a lateral role to you for a long time and how effective or efficient they are in their job.
And we start actually comparing our faults or our challenges,
or our misgivings with actually their greatest successes and the things that they’re doing, even whether or not those things air related and then the other thing that really sets in is an indicator for,
imposture syndrome is, ah, large dose of fear and usually that results in a fear of failure that we are,
too afraid to dive in or trying new things and that fear of failure can really be a problem.

[9:10] And we start making fear based decisions rather than actually going through and making data driven decisions, because we’re afraid of that.
The negativity, uh, that may come if we screw up, right? I’ve heard the term compare and despair right there.
There’s no there’s no benefit to come from comparing yourself to people who by definition, have a better sense of what they’re doing in that role there, just more familiar with it. So I really like that.

[9:43] I’m so it sounds. It sounds pretty clear at this point that imposter syndrome is something that engineers need to be careful of and the effects air bad.
What do you do about it? How can you recognize that in yourself and then combat that phenomenon so that you’re not kind of hung up by it?

[10:05] Yeah, so I’m a huge believer in mindset principles, and there’s a bunch of different kind of mindset pairs that we could talk about that ah, budget of room can actually relate to,
this overcoming imposter syndrome situation, one of the ones that’s probably most.

[10:24] Well known and out there is the idea of the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset, and this is taught very well.
And the book by Carol Dweck, And she’s giving a really famous Ted talk on it, and I would highly recommend people to go check that stuff out.
But basically, if people are unfamiliar with this idea, someone has a fixed mindset.
Might believe that who they are and their ability to succeed in something is driven by their innate talents and abilities and kind of who they are now is kind of who they’re always going to be,
versus Someone with a growth mindset sees challenges and things that are hard not as problems that they’ll never overcome, but actually as opportunities to learn and grow and recognize that they can become something different all the time.
And ah, I think that the huge piece to how we kind of overcome that if we can fuel our mindsets in a way that recognizes the that these things that are hard, that these things that are challenging for us,
and these new opportunities are actually really opportunities to grow.
And I think that’s a a huge thing that can help it.
Couple other things. But I would say is to also get outside of yourself so that fear and that insecurity that we feel when we are dealing with the imposter syndrome is really kind of a selfish feeling.

[11:47] And if we can get outside of ourselves and start to look at how where you can impact and help other people,
especially if you’re in a new leadership position or something like that, then you have that opportunity to stop thinking about what your challenges are and start thinking about how can you help other people?
And this is what I was writing about in my article that I think you read a few weeks ago that,
this idea that if we can start focusing on other people, get outside of ourselves, then suddenly the fear that we’re dealing with can melt away, and we can start providing value to the people who we actually have a stewardship to help,
Yeah, I really like that. And I like that term stewardship.
And that came up in your article for sure Is that you’ve got a certain responsibility to the world around you. It’s not about you having all the answers so much as you putting yourself in the position to facilitate other people doing their thing.

[12:41] Yeah. What? One of the ideas that you just mentioned that I really, really like. Is it the idea of getting outside of yourself?
I can, I can hear in my head, though. The cynic engineer is saying, Well, what does that mean?
How do you do that? Did you have any Any hands on kind of practical ways that you can operationalize that if operationalize is even a word?
You and I both have NBA’s. We make up words. This is Yeah, it’s Ah, it’s an occupational hazard, I guess.
But I would say there’s, um, basic basic principles here that, you know, it’s it’s not too complicated.
We’ll talk about getting outside of yourself. Uhm you know, and really serving and helping others.
Sometimes we think about this idea of maybe like the golden rule like treat others the way that you would want to be treated, and I have actually recently come across someone say, Well, hey, the golden rules out great.
But what about the platinum rule? How about treat people the way that they want to be treated, and so what?
And there’s a difference there, right? Because how you want to be treated is not necessarily how someone else put a want to be treated cause they’re a different person.
So it really just relies on spending some time with the people that you have that stewardship, that.

[14:01] Responsibility towards and spending some time understanding where you and your role impacts them and how you convey best help.
And if you can really spend some time and understand where you can be a the most service to the people that it’s your responsibility to serve and help, then you then have that opportunity to make the adjustments.
You’re going to learn how to do your job better, and you’re gonna learn how to personalize that better,
to the people that you are leading and managing, And when you conduce that, then suddenly your mindset shifts in a way that you’re seeking to help other people rather than protect yourself and that, and that’s where that shift really happens.
That’s beautiful. That’s great. Can you think of a time in your own career where you realized you were kind of being burdened by imposter syndrome and if so what? What?
What did you do about it? How did you kind of get out of that hole?

[14:59] Yeah, So I would say there’s been multiple times. There’s been many times and just toe go back before I directly enter this question.
I think I mentioned earlier that this is a pattern of life’s that we go through, right?
And my dad would always kind of when I was younger, and he just reiterated it even just a few months ago.
Kind of this pattern we go through in life, Okay, You go through like, elementary school, and you kind of get to the top of the food chain, Think you’ve got it all figured out, and then you move to middle school and then you’re back at the bottom again, and you don’t really belong in your insecure and whatever you go through middle school, you get to the top of the food chain.
Then you go into high school in your back of the bottom again.
You do that through college. You do that through first jobs. You do that through all these different stages of life.
And we always have to keep having these kind of start over, recognize that we’re in a new position.
And so it’s a pattern of life. And so certainly in my career.
Almost each job I have had I felt imposter syndrome. I felt like I’m not sure if I can do this.

[16:00] When my first engineering job out of college was I got a mechanical engineering degree, But I actually went and became a software engineer.
I’d only actually taken a few software classes, and most of people I was working with had done a lot more.
And I was like, I don’t know if I can dive into this hole software thing, but I, uh I made the commitment as I was.
I went there that I’m gonna make the best opportunity out of this. I can. I’m gonna dive in. I’m gonna learn him, recognize that I’m gonna be a little bit behind in the software world.
But luckily I was designing software for things that I was really familiar with, which was CAD systems, which mechanical engineers would be very familiar with.
And so I was able to leverage some of that that background and really dive in and find other ways that I could provide value even if I wasn’t.

[16:56] Always the best person to be like the best technique like software architect, person on any project at any given time.
Then I could really maybe step into another role and help with some of the testing or some of the project management staff for writing user stories and a screamer, agile environment, which is what we’re in.
So I found these other ways to kind of fill in the gaps or, like I like to say, see the need and fill a need, like when there’s something that needs to be done, and I felt like I could do that.
Then I looked for opportunities toe to serve, even when I wasn’t a leader there. But I was still definitely feeling that imposter syndrome, and that’s just one example.
But I like that idea of see the need where, where gaps that need to be filled and how can I help there, even if I don’t feel like I can do everything as well as everyone else?

[17:52] Let’s say in the situation where your a manager, you’re a leader and you you have that self confidence you feel secure in your role.
Imposter syndrome is not a major influence in your life, but but you recognize it in some of your colleagues, some of your staff.
What can you do to help them kind of shake themselves out of that situation?
Eso. First thing I would probably say is to just empathize with them like, you know, you use kind of shake them out of it, and I recognize that that’s kind of a way to like Hey, you were trying to help them.
But sometimes if we can be, if we’re too forceful about that and pointing out that they have a problem and not recognizing and kind of starting with our opening with the vulnerability that we have those same issues and have dealt with those same issues,
then they can start to kind of see that humanity and that empathy,
that we can have and and so spending some time listening them what they’re really struggling with identifying.

[18:52] Where they’re feeling inadequate in those ways is is really helpful.
And then some of those same principles that we talked about with ourselves is help them to see others.
So it’s not pushing them necessarily towards the new actions that we want them to take toe to break out of it.
But it’s more of like a pull method where we’re seeing like, Hey, you have a responsibility to help your team members, your stakeholders, who your team delivers for or whoever these other people be they impact in their work.
And if we can help them identify and be thinking about OK, If I’m not performing two in the best way that I can, then that’s going to negatively impact some of these other people, and that’s not in a way to, like, put more pressure on them.
But that’s more in the way of trying to help them identify where they can add value and and just how important and valued their role is with the team.

[19:49] And then, obviously he’s a leader. It’s your responsibility to give them the support that they need.
The time the resource is the training, the vision of whether they need to accomplish and not just say, you know, going off and leaving them on their own to flounder for themselves.
We need to be doing that a little bit.
And then I really like to try and turn this whole imposter thing around for the people that we work with dry really helping to build accountability, like personal accountability in themselves.
That kind of goes back to that, helping them see other people, right?

[20:28] But I love the personal accountability story and, uh, you know, one of the great business books of all time. The Seven Habits of highly effective people. And in that Dr Covey is talking about,
how he’s teaching his son to take care of the lawn and gives him the vision.
He says. What’s the goal? The goal is green and clean.
The goal is green and clean, and so we and he shows him what green means, and he shows them what clean means.
But he says that you’re the bus and I’m the helper here and he’s really giving his son responsibility and then it throughout that story.
He also goes in and kind of takes that away because he, his son, wasn’t doing what he wanted into you because his son was kind of feeling this imposter syndrome.
He wasn’t sure he had what it took, Um, but they were able to reiterate through that relationship, and it kind of takes these steps.
It takes these times to kind of move through, build that trust and build that accountability where people really feel that they have something to give and and and then point out when they do great things, you know, help them feel great about that as well.

[21:38] That’s fantastic. And an excellent, excellent book that should be on ah, on every engineering manager Cell shelf. Absolutely.
Jeff, there’s been absolutely fantastic has been a a wonderful time.
Uh, doing my first interview with you here on the podcast. Even just awesome.
If people want toe, learn mawr or reach out to you and connect, where’s the best place for them to go?

[22:02] Yes, there’s a few places that people confined me. My main website is more than dash engineering dot com.
Um, and I and I write right early with the with the block they can get. Some of my free resource is like a career clarity guide on with a bunch of specific actions they can dive into give more clarity in their career.
Um, and then I’m pretty active on Linked in is probably the social platform that I use the mostly confined me.
They’re always happy to connect with other great engineers who are trying to, um, upgrade their careers.
And certainly anyone who’s a friend of Pat says is a friend of mine. So those are probably the best places toe to reach me. Also, I’m currently working on a new course that’ll come out here soon.
For ah, people were trying to upgrade their careers as well and or move through job transitions and and a lot of engineers these days because of ah, the pandemic or dealing with the layoffs and stuff like that and trying to help them with that situation as well.
So, um, kind of stay tuned with, with some more announcements about that for me?

[23:06] Absolutely. And when that course does come out, you have to let me know when I’ll share toe. I’ll share with folks here on the podcast and for anyone listening. All those links to be available in the show notes that Jeff once again, Thank you so much for coming out today. So it’s been an absolute blast.
Yeah. Thanks, Pat. I really enjoyed it myself.

[23:22] That was my interview with Jeff Perry, some excellent discussion and really interesting ideas from Jeff.
He really hammered home the importance of mindset throughout that conversation. So I hope you picked up on that mindset is an incredibly important toe.
I really appreciated his perspectives There.
You can visit the show notes at engineering and leadership dot com slash Episode 11 for all the links and resources we mentioned, including links to Jeffs website and is linked in page.
And please do feel free to leave comments at the bottom of those show notes. If you have questions or feedback, I’d love to hear it. I know Jeff would, too.
So, again, it just head on over to engineering and leadership dot com slash episode 11.
Next will open up the engineering and leadership mailbag.

[24:06] Music.

[24:16] This is the part of the show where I read your mail, your comments, tweets and messages and answer your questions.
I promise to read everything you send me, and I promise to share my favorites right here on the podcast.
Couple longer form e mails came in this week that I wanted to highlight really, really good stuff.
First from Rupert Shingle tonight one of my very first episodes way back when in 2015 was about how to choose between management and being a technical guru in your career.
I think I think careers for engineers are more nuanced than that.
But the big early fork in the road is Do you want to become a manager or do you want to become a technical expert?
And he explained that the episode really hit home for him in terms of trying to reconcile, wanted to make progress in his career while at the same time wanted to actually enjoy the work he was doing.
And often one comes at the expense of the other.
And this this episode really kind of dug into things. Form those episode, too, by the way. So if you go to engineering and leadership dot com slash Episode two, you’ll you’ll see that you can listen to that anyway, Rupert said. That was super helpful.
He’s starting a new role with the next couple of weeks on a major rail project that he’s really excited about.
I come from the rail industry a swell, and I’m really excited about this on Rupert’s behalf, so that’s really really great. So congratulations to you, Rupert.
And thank you. So, so much for writing. It’s It’s awesome to hear from you. So the best of luck in the new role.

[25:42] And the other person I wanted to mention is Matthew Deck Matthews, a mechanical engineer who leads a team of about 100 people in the transportation industry. He’s based in in Washington, D. C.
And he just released a new book called Seed Ah!
Hard science fiction novel about survival, colonization and leadership growth, which is really, really cool.
So this is a work of fiction, and it combines leadership and actual hardcourts science and really, really cool. I’ve already purchased my copy.
You can get it on Amazon, and I’ll put a link Teoh to it so that you can check it out yourself.

[26:20] It’s just really cool to see an example of an engineer putting their knowledge both of the business world on the technical world to use in a different venue.
And I also think it’s cool that Matthews got a bit of a side hustle here that he’s working full time. He’s got a huge team, and somehow he’s hammered out this book. So there’s something I’ve wanted to do for a very long time is to write a book.
Personally, I’d be more interested in a in a non fiction like a leadership business book, so stay tuned for that at some point in the future.
So what Matthew and I worked out is I’m gonna have him on the show at some point in the near future because I would love to talk to him about the writing process, about communicating ideas through writing, which is something that’s important to all engineers and something that, frankly, many engineers struggle with.

[27:05] And how he was able to balance this major side hustle with his other responsibilities in life.
So stay tuned for that and again. Thank you, Matthew. Thank you, Rupert. Both for writing. It was awesome to hear from me this week.
If you’d like to reach out, it’s very, very easy to reach me.
You can always leave a comment in the show notes. You can find me on LinkedIn Twitter for email again.
The address is pat at engineering and leadership dot com.
You’d find me on Twitter at NGO Leader, and you can look me up on LinkedIn.
Thedc Weston of the Week This week is going to be about the theme about what Jeff and I discussed.
I’d like to know about your experience with imposter syndrome, and most importantly, I’d like to know, How did you beat it? Is there anything that Jeff and I didn’t talk about? Any advice that you would give to other engineers on how to beat imposter syndrome?
Please do leave a response. I love hearing from you.
You can leave that at the bottom of the show notes again. Engineering leadership dot com slash episode 11.

[28:10] That is all the time we have for the show today. If you enjoyed the show, please hit the subscribe button using whatever podcast delivery service you use.
And please leave an honest review that helps me to make the show better and helps other people to find the show as well.
If you want to read what you just heard, just go to engineering and leadership dot com slash episode 11.
There you’ll be able to find the main content and even download full transcript of the show, including all of the links and resources mentioned.
And again, don’t forget to grab your free copy of the passionate engineer by going to engineering and leadership dot com slash passion until next time.
This is Pat Sweet, reminding you that if you’re going to be anything, be excellent.

[28:53] Music.

[29:02] You’ve been listening to the engineering and leadership podcast with Pat Sweet.
If you like to learn more, go to engineering and leadership dot com, where you’ll find more free articles, podcasts and downloads to help engineers thrive.
That’s engineering and leadership dot com.

[29:19] Music.