Host - Pat Sweet: This is the engineering and leadership podcast with pat sweet episode 34. [inaudible] Welcome to the engineering and leadership podcast. The show dedicated to helping engineers thrive today. I speak with psychologist, Dr. Robin Rosenberg, but the future of work and how to deal with the challenges associated with hybrid workplaces.

Host - Pat Sweet: Hi everyone. And welcome to the show, pat sweet here. Very, very happy to be with you today here from Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, in some enormous news, very big news, personal news. I finally got my second vaccine. I feel personally terrible right at the moment, but I'm trying to push through it. I'm trying to push through the, the, the, the current feelings that I have knowing, knowing that it's for the greater good and knowing I will emerge through what is roughly equivalent to a man cold, right at the moment. I hope, I hope you hear my energy. I hope you hear my enthusiasm for the show, because if it weren't for the show, I'd be lying horizontal somewhere. So with that, with that, a ringing endorsement do go get vaccinated. It's super, super important. If you've ever wanted to save the world, this is a, this is the best way to do it.

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Host - Pat Sweet: Industries around the world, hybrid workplaces are expected to become the norm by the end of the COVID-19 pandemic, like many other engineers, I'm personally pretty thrilled about this. It feels like we're stepping into a modern era where we're using new technologies to facilitate flexibility and employee wellbeing. And that's all great beyond that. There's also the promise of access to previously untapped markets, both for business and talent. To me, these are truly exciting times. It's the big opportunity that has come along with the decidedly challenging times. We've all been working through despite the obvious benefits. However, there are also real challenges associated with hybrid workplaces challenges that leaders should know about before making any kind of major decision about how the future of work will work for their teams. That's why today I'll be chatting with psychologist, Dr. Robin Rosenberg, Robin is the CEO and founder of live in their world, a psychotherapy and coaching organizations with offices in San Francisco and New York city besides her clinical work. Dr. Rosenberg is an assistant clinical professor at the university of California, San Francisco, and is taught psychology classes at both Lesley university and Harvard university. Here's my conversation with Dr. Rosenberg, Dr. Robin Rosenberg, welcome to the engineering and leadership podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: I'm really excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Host - Pat Sweet: I'd like to start things off, get a little bit of an understanding of, of you and your work and where your interest in hybrid workplaces comes from.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: I'm a psychologist. And I find the issue about remote work interesting with the pandemic it's it's was not a great test case in the sense that this was not a work from anywhere in an optimal way. It was probably the least optimal way you could do it. It still worked right. That's the great news. The data are there at work. It, but it highlighted some of the challenges for instance about collaboration that's much harder. And that leads to issues around belonging, engagement, inclusion, feeling included, not feel included. And, and so I think the hybrid workplace, the big move, I mean, some, some organizations have been hybrid before, but the big thrust as we moved toward hybrid in a, in a bigger way is really interesting in part because of the biases that will come up with a two tiered system, if you will. I mean, we, we already know about lots of other biases that happen in the workplace, and we're trying to develop tools to provide awareness and how to counter the biases. Hybrid's going to bring a new set. So I'm just interested as a psychologist in the what, what the data suggest might happen and ways we can mitigate some of the downsides and what, what then would actually happen so we can make predictions and then we have to see or hypotheses, if you will, and then see what, see what happens. So I, I just think it's an interesting unfolding experiment. Absolutely.

Host - Pat Sweet: I, I think many of us in the working world look at what's what has unfolded and what's about to unfold into a new normal and, and get wrapped up in and kind of the way, the way work will happen. And, and will we be productive? Will we be able to get things done? So, so your take as a psychologist, I think is a fascinating one and no less important, right? Because that, that plays in to, to how work works. But before we get into that, maybe let's let's establish some definitions here. I think you mentioned two important terms. One was bias and the other is I suppose, hybrid workplace, we should define for folks listening. So let's start with hybrid workplace. What, what, what do you, what do you mean by that?

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: So a great call about definitions. Some, some people may use the term blended and in hybrid interchangeably, most people just use hybrid as a catchall hybrid can mean I, as an employee and both in the office, but also work from elsewhere some of the times. So I, I work in a hybrid manner. It can also mean that there are people who are full-time in the office, and there are people who are never in the office. And that's one form. And then there's the form where it's just a mish-mash of whatever. You know, they're not there sometimes, always never. And then there's the the planned, everyone should come in on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, or, and then the office is, you know, more or less empty except for critical employees on Tuesday, Thursday. So it's really used as a catch all phrase, from my perspective, I think the, the commonalities of all of them is we are not all in place five days a week.

Host - Pat Sweet: Right, right. But, but there's a, there's a, there's a breadth of options within that non-traditional arrangement. There, there are a number of different ways for that to, to kind of express itself.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: Right. And we, and people are experimenting with different kinds of variations and you know, it will be, I think, a little bit of a moving target. So people plan now, partly it's going to be for density reasons as much as any other reason. Right. And then a year from now, or two years or five years from now, it may be, it's really, that's the experiment part of, in what ways was this actually better in terms of hiring? You know, we could hire people who didn't want to come into the city five days a week, but they were willing to come in twice a week or they're remote all the time. And we hired people in Nova Scotia and so welfare visa issues there. But you know, we, we hired people in Kansas who might never have otherwise, you know worked with us. So it will be an interesting moving target of what hybrid means for a given organization. And that will change over time. Sure. Of course,

Host - Pat Sweet: Of course. Now how about bias? I suspect this is going to be an important word as we move through the conversation here. So I think generally there's a colloquial understanding what bias means, but in, in very specific terms, what does, what does bias actually mean?

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: So a bias, we all have biases, let me say, and you can't not have them. So if you, you know, you may have heard about trainings that try to in quotes de bias people and you can't actually, we can't live in the world without biases. Biases are simply mental shortcuts that you're kind of here is mental heuristics, cognitive heuristics. So you know, for instance biases, if I think of an apple, you know, and you think of an apple, we're probably thinking of a similar apple, cause we're thinking of a prototype, right? That's just the, what comes to mind. We're not, we're not have, if you say apple, I'm not having to ask you 10 questions before I form an image of an apple. Right, right. That's, that's a bias, that's, that's one type of bias. We have all kinds of biases. So when we talk about it in the workplace, what we're really talking about is a systematic cognitive shortcut.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: And that is that is this. So it's a mental process that the downstream effect can be discriminatory, which is the behavior right? Bias is, is mental discrimination, is the behavior bias can influence us, nudge us to behave in ways that may not be explicitly and obviously discriminatory, but in a legal term, there may not be discriminatory in legal definition, but they are disrespectful and create problems for some people and not others. And that's really what the issue is bias. If someone's a jerk right there and they're a jerk to everyone, they're just a jerk. It's not really even, you know, I mean, that's just, that's who they are. They may be biased to be a jerk, but they're not. It's not really what we mean when we say bias in a workplace context, it's bias. If he's only a jerk to women, if he's only a jerk to people of color, if he's only a jerk to Canadians you know, th that or young people or old people or people with beards, or although beer people's beards are not a protected class.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: But that's really what we mean by bias. And so when I'm using the term in terms of a hybrid workplace, what I mean is that remote workers or people who work remotely more than other employees maybe the, the, the research thus far might indicate that they're at a disadvantage. Okay. Interesting. And so there's something called the mere exposure effect in psychology. And that is where the more we're exposed to something, hence the name more contact we have with an object or a person. The more we are likely to feel positively towards it. And that's really the idea of a lot of advertising or billboards. It's, it's really just too, the more you hear someone's name, the more positive, unless you have a reason, like, unless you've had a bad experience, unless there's, the default assumption is the more is better. And so political candidates, you know, same thing.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: Sure. So the more you see a coworker, the more a boss sees their direct reports or people under them in some capacity, the odds are just higher, all things being equal that they'll feel more positively towards those people. There's also a different bias. The called the availability heuristic, which is just the more you see something, the easier it is to call to mind, that's the kind of out of sight, out of mind concept. And so, you know, if I'm thinking about assigning tasks and your remote worker, and I just, you know, see you 25% of the time that I see your colleagues and your work is equivalent, and anyone in either of you could do this job, you know, a high remote worker in an in person worker, all things being equal, I'm more likely to assign it to the person who's there, unless there's a reason for me to think, to stop and think, right. So this is all of these biases can be overridden. It's not like we're a slave to biases, but, but the, the point is it a to be aware of the bias and then once you're aware of it is to think, well, okay, so what is the equitable thing to do here? Right. Right. And so that just takes some time and effort and people typically don't really like to spend extra time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Host - Pat Sweet: And, and I'm sitting here thinking to myself, but again, because where I work, this is a major topic of discussion as I expected is in, in many businesses around the world is what, what kind of things will we offer to our staff in terms of flexibility with respect to workplace. And many of us, myself included have, have done really very well working from home. It, it suits it suits my particular lifestyle. I'm very comfortable working from my home office. It's great. I, I view it as this new perk that just landed in my lap. Right. It's one of the few things we can thank COVID for. Okay, great. But now I'm second guessing that right now, now I, I can't help it worry. Oh, well, am I putting myself at a disadvantage? Maybe, maybe not, maybe not in the immediate term, but in the long run slowly but surely will my for want of a better term status erode, or then on the flip side, I start to worry about how I treat my own staff. See right now everybody's remote. So, so it's great. So there, there is no opportunity for bias, right. Everyone is on that or at least this kind of bias. Yeah. That's an important qualifier. Yes. so, so bearing all this in mind, what, what, what does a leader to do, right? Because like you said, it's, it's tough. It's tough to, to stop yourself, to, to have that pause, to really think about the equitable choice. What, what do you recommend leaders who are in this situation or about to be in this situation?

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: Great question. I think partly it's not to have to make these decisions alone. So it's really you know, to the extent that leadership or mid-level managers that there's, some, some attention is given systemically to this question so that you're not making this decision alone in a vacuum like all kinds of biases that happen. System-Wide right. Why should you have to reinvent a wheel that your colleagues are also trying to reinvent together with some of their solutions may not work for you, but at least there's putting more heads together. So that's the first thing I'd say is really meet with your colleagues at your level, or even higher if you're not at the highest level to just sort of kick it upstairs as high up of, Hey, this is likely to be an issue. How do, how do, how are we thinking about this?

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: How do we want to address this in a systemic way? Right. so that's, that's one, the first piece that I would say the second piece is really just being thoughtful and, and being willing to take the time before and after meetings before and after task assignments that are substantive. And even kind of once a week, checking in with yourself about and other people, cause you have to ask, what am I missing? So it's, it's particularly with the remote workers or the people who are in the office, less of, you know, I have targeted this as something that I'm trying to address. Here's how I'm addressing it, let me know how I'm doing, but let's have an ongoing conversation named and let's keep an eye on this. So that's helps a lot. And that's, you know, part of leadership is really being open to feedback and putting on the table and being open to learning your blind spots.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: It may be talking with your remote or less common workers about this and, and, and brainstorming together, you know, collaborating how they can feel more engaged, how you can feel more on top of making sure they're getting treated equitably, right. In either task, assignment, promotion, whatever it is, checking in there are. I have discovered there are some products out there platforms or products that allow people to feel like you're co located with mates. So w w my current favorite that I like is called sidekick, and it's, it has like a fablet, you know, those big, big, small tablets, big phone sized device that you put sort of next to your computer, and you decide what teammates or what people you're that you want to be seeing. And so you see them and you can just press a button on the fablet to talk to any one of them, if they're not available, you know, but you, you it's it's this, that it, that sense of being able to roll your chair over or walk by their workstation, see if they're busy, you know, you have a question you want to ask them, or you just see them, you look up from your computer and you see them.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: And so you feel part of a group. So some devices like that may poor platforms, there are many varieties of this might be effective. At least some of the time, just to keep an eye as someone had suggested to me, keeping photos of the remote staff kind of around your desk, I liked that idea, you know, because it's keeping them present and asking them to do the same. Right. So because that is the, if they're out of sight, out of mind until you want something from them, and so this is keeping them in mind. Right. Right. And so like with your kids, right. The same reason, why do you have pictures of, you know, your daughter on your desk or wherever you are rotating in your screensavers, it's the same principle. So and, and just having an ongoing dialogue and talking about it and trying to address it. I mean, I think really, you know, there's awareness and then there's action, and then see what you think. And it's an experiment, right? It's an experiment for you as a leader for your organization as a whole, and for the people who are more frequently remote about what that's like. So that's from a leadership position. And then there's the position of you as the remote employee.

Host - Pat Sweet: It's interesting to me that you mentioned this, the, the, the fabulous idea. I, I, I not heard of that, but, but, but it makes sense. You're, you're trying to recreate a certain atmosphere, right. A certain feeling. And it's interesting to me that, that we kind of jumped to that and skipped over kind of the, the, the zoom video call or, or, or FaceTime is, is, is there a reason why that doesn't, it's not quite enough, right. I, I, I see, you know, I, I like I like being able to see well, like, like we're speaking right now, right. For a podcast, we don't need to have the video chat, but, but, but it is helpful. It, it sounds almost like that doesn't go quite far enough in terms of kind of helping to protect against bias. Is that, is that am I jumping to a conclusion here? Or so

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: When I was talking about those kinds of devices or the, the reason I like sidekick in particular is it is a separate device. Yeah. And you can have it on as often as you want, even when you're not in a meeting. Okay. So reason zoom, zoom is fine, or any kind of video conferencing is, you know, we could talk about the pluses and minuses of it compared to what right. But what I'm talking about is, is really those micro interactions that happen that create the glue that binds us together. So for instance, let's say we had a zoom meeting or, or an in person meeting. It doesn't matter. And you and I were on opposite sides of an issue, right. About what to do next, or how much money to allocate for something. I don't, it doesn't matter, but we both, you don't court when we're quite passionate in our own way.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: And the meeting ended now in in-person, what might well happen is we might walk out together and chat and so make nice sort of like, you know, we can disagree and it's okay, but we still have our relationship or we, or we may head in different directions, but I may make a point, or you may make a point of walking by each other's workstations. And just, we don't even have to say anything of just smiling at each other, you know? And so we did a little mini repair if you will. Or maybe we did talk to each other, but, but, but we have that option. And if you're, if one or both of us is remote, you know, it's, you have to schedule a call or you have to do a slack. Or if it's the obstacle to an extremely little level, very short repair is high right there.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: Isn't really the opportunity. Because if I let's say, I, I slack you, or I, we do a quick zoom of like, Hey, are we good even asking, are we good? Creates its own intensity? The like, well, yeah, we were good. You know, why are you asking me? We just had a disagreement. So so I like these devices because we can have those little micro interactions just as if we were walking by each other's workstations. Or I rolled my thing over to you to ask a quick question without it w unrelated, without it being a thing. Right. so it's, it's really, I think that's what we all have, or I shouldn't say we, many of us have really missed is the, is the micro interaction process that makes us feel connected and not like we're working. Right, right.

Host - Pat Sweet: It it's, it's amazing how much work happens or if nothing else, rapport building happens at the coffee maker. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, and honestly, that, that's something that I, I personally miss quite a bit. Right. And, and it's, it's it's something that is very difficult to recreate which, which I, I, I hadn't, I hadn't put much thought toward before. That's a, that's really fascinating.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: And that's where I think the belonging and engagement come in because you know, what makes us want to go the go go the extra mile for our team, for our boss, for our colleague, for someone, you know, for direct report or, or below a direct report is, is the personal connection or the mission. Right. And you know what, the mission often when you're in the weeds of your work, it's not quite so connected to the mission. It doesn't, it doesn't really feel like any one day or, or another's, and is critical to the mission. And so it's really about the people, right. Or, and so for many people, not everyone obviously, but and I, and that's just harder. It's just when you're not seeing each other in person and for new hires who are onboarded remotely. I mean, I think that's, that's a whole other conversation.

Host - Pat Sweet: Yeah. We've, we've had a number, a number of new hires within my team. Co-Op students in particular. I, I feel for, I feel for, because you, you, you can get to feeling lost at the best of times in, in a big place, in a new, in a new company, especially if it's your first job or haven't even graduated yet. This is totally, yeah. There's a lot, a lot that I think that gets lost in terms of your education about what it's like to be in the working world. Yeah. So it's really interesting. You bring that

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: Up. Right. And, and so they, you know, it's a question of how do you acculturate new hires if they're remote or they're only in a day, a week. And, and the most important thing of course is for them to build relationships, but what, how does culture transmission happen? But as I say, particularly for new hires, I mean, there's some data, there are some data that show, if you already have an existing relationship, then you know, the detriment, if you will, isn't quite so clear. But if, and especially if you, as you said, if you don't have a lot of work experience, it's really swimming upstream. Yeah.

Host - Pat Sweet: Yeah, definitely. There's something that I hadn't entirely expected to, to ask you about, but I, I happen to be aware of your interest in VR and virtual reality. And I know that there's something that in your business, you take advantage of technologies like this to help train people, particularly with respect to civility and, and addressing issues related to bias. I'm starting to see how something like virtual reality could, could help a lot in a situation like this, right. In, in well we, we, we've talked about just being able to kind of look over at your colleague, even if they are on a screen that would feel like a much more natural interaction. Do you see, do you see room in the world for this, a very practical application of virtual reality to help kind of facilitate hybrid workplaces?

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: So there are companies that use virtual reality for co-location experiences, if you will for all kinds, whether it's meetings or presentations or conferences there, there are some obstacles I mean, it works to the extent that you're wearing it, you're wearing the headset, right? I mean, VR is amazing your brain, we know from neuroscience studies that your brain registered, the experience is real. You know, what, whatever you're experiencing in VR is it, your brain registers it, you're experiencing it in reality. Okay. So you have to wear a headset VR, and many people don't like to wear headsets, or if they wear them, they don't want to wear them for too long. So that's a limiting factor. You tend as this moment, as far as I know, you're not getting the facial expressions. I mean, it's either that the other people are avid pretty much avatars, static.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: Even their bodily movements, you just see their body moves, you know, left right up down, but it doesn't, you don't see people well, you may see people just stimulating. It depends, but it's not quite the same as, as the full body channels that you would get in person. So there's you think you're getting more information than you actually are in the same way that in zoom, we may think we're face-to-face, but, but in fact, there's data that's lost in video. So, so there is, it's better, you know, in certain ways, but not so much in other ways, because I, I can't see your expression. Right. Of course. So, so it's co-located but right. The other thing is it for now, if you put on a headset, the advantage is that you can't multitask, right? So you're not having this incoming stream in meetings or conferences, or, you know, where you're checking email and you're reading slack and, you know, you're playing solitaire.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: At, at some point you probably will be able to do that in VR. And it's a really interesting question about what's lost once, once you can do that. So the advantage is you can't multitask, so you're paying full attention, or at least unless your mind is elsewhere, the disadvantage is that you can't multitask because if you need to be multitasking or you need to be available and, you know, for this really important incoming slack, you can't. So the good and the bad. Yeah. So I mean, so you can, the answer to your original question is yes, you, there are companies that are doing VR, so you can be cold located. So yes, there are companies doing VR where you can feel co located. It's got pluses and minuses. There are equity issues around who has headsets, right? Their expenses around who has the headsets, who's servicing those where's customer service. People are having a hard time and, and like all things that involve humans, it's still about humans. And so people can be jerks in VR. There are issues about who's invited to the meeting and who isn't and why, you know, who's talking, who's interrupting, who's taking notes. So all of those issues still happen in VR and, and they, you know, they may have been more often, they may happen less often. It kind of depends, but hope I answered that

Host - Pat Sweet: Question. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's it's what, what, what I'm coming away from this with is, is understanding that this, this really is a brave new world. This, this will introduce unintended consequences that that leaders need to be aware of and need to plan for. And it sounds like, yeah, absolutely. There will be benefits to hybrid workplaces, but it's not business as usual. And it will be important for, for leaders and organizations to be aware of that and set themselves up accordingly.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: Exactly. I would say it's going to be the new businesses usual. And so it's, it's really trying to be thoughtful about troubleshooting the likely downsides and how can we mitigate those to the best of our ability and how especially, you know, as a psychologist and my company addresses issues of civility and respect because it has all kinds of great consequences for organizations financially in terms of productivity, in terms of retention branding, yeah. Talent acquisition later virtuous cycle. But, but there are things we can anticipate and, and there's no guarantee they're going to happen, but, you know, there's a high likelihood and leaders are really in a position now to troubleshoot for them. When, you know, when we all went remote or many of us went remote, it was really just, you know, code red. And it was just, what do we do to survive?

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: And I know as we, we moved toward hybrid, it's, it's an opportunity to think, well, if this is going to be our new normal for, you know, a decade or so, let's really think from the ground up, how do we want to use tech? Right. cause it's more tech isn't always better, right? Like VR for co-location, it's great for collaboration, by the way, I should just say for, for when teams or people collaborate and it's really important to the work and, and the, the, that pheromonal quality is missing remotely. And it doesn't make sense to be in person then VR may actually a really good you know, sort of next best or the collaborative efforts. The times when people are actually in high collaboration with each other, brainstorming on something, for example, brainstorming, if there objects that people need to look at together. I mean, you can, you can literally create 3d objects together in space, in virtual space. Right. so, or just, you know, sitting around a virtual conference table. So but, but I think, you know, there are knowns and unknowns and let's, we, the knowns it's, it's easy to really just, you know, spend an hour or two problem solving.

Host - Pat Sweet: So Robin, this has been a, this has been fascinating. And I, I like to think that there are a lot of people who are going to walk away from this with a lot to think about and, and will be motivated to to really be thoughtful. Like you said about about this new, this new era of work. Though I'm guessing that a lot of people will want additional guidance additional resources and they they may be interested in, in you and your work. If, if someone did want to reach out to you or was interested in in what you do, where's the best place for them to go.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: Thank you. Great question. You can find me on LinkedIn, just look on the, there are other Robin Rosenberg's, but only one psychologist that's me. You can reach me@robinatliveintheirworld.com and live in their world has a Twitter account. So you can keep abreast of things that we're doing. And for your listeners to know, we have a white paper of best practices on giving and receiving feedback. And so any listeners welcome to come to our site@liveintheirworld.com backslash publications, and it's at the top of that page. Oh,

Host - Pat Sweet: Awesome. And I'll, I'll be sure to put links to all of that in the show notes. So then the white, the white paper, for sure. That's a, that's hugely, hugely helpful. Dr. Rosenberg, thank you very much for your time tonight. It was an absolute pleasure.

Guest - Dr. Robin Rosenberg: Thank you so much. I, it was really great to, you know, talk about hybrid work and the brave new world, as you said. Thank

Host - Pat Sweet: You for having me. You're very welcome. I'm sure we'll be talking again soon. Great. Thank you very much, Dr. Robin Rosenberg, that was an awful lot of fun. Very, very eyeopening for me. One of the things I like most about this podcast is how much I get to learn from experts in their fields. And Dr. Rosenberg was no exception. In fact, I really felt at times gobsmacked by the kinds of things that I was learning and probably the most important thing that I learned is is the risk associated with this two tiered system, with people in the office and people outside of the office and the biases associated with closeness to people and recency. And, and just realizing that for someone like me, who wants to work from home, that I I've got, I've got a couple layers of, of professional challenge here. One as a manager, I've got to make sure that I'm recognizing that bias that I may have for the staff that I see or hear from less frequently, which is obviously a real risk.

Host - Pat Sweet: The other thing is I've got to look at the impacts to my own career and ensure that I take steps to protect against my leaders, exercising decisions based on unconscious bias related to the fact that I am a remote worker. So really, really challenging stuff. And it's got me thinking, I don't frankly know what to do about it, but I know that I've got to do something. So stay tuned for that. What are the other interesting lessons learned here was that you can't not have biases. Biases are a fact of life and, and in some ways those mental shortcuts are super helpful. They're, they're really useful. And I think Dr. Rosenberg mentioned that that idea of like, if we all picture what an apple looks like, there's a bias toward what an apple looks like, and that's useful so that you can quickly call to mind what the other person you're talking to is probably also calling to mind.

Host - Pat Sweet: And there's common ground there. Unfortunately, some biases can lead to poor decision making and at its worst discrimination. So you can't be a leader without bias, no such thing exists. So given that it's super important to understand what bias is and what biases you may have and to take active steps, to recognize them and compensate for them. So that, that was a huge lesson learned for me. Finally, what are the other things that I walk away from this conversation thinking hard about is the value of the micro interactions that we used to have in the office, by the coffee maker or the water cooler. And that we really, I do miss that with remote work and these little interactions really do make us feel [inaudible] with people and not so alone. And, and the value associated with talking about the game last night or, or chatting about who knows what anything besides work is, is super, super important.

Host - Pat Sweet: And, and Dr. Rosenberg made the point that of work stuff also happens around the coffee maker, which to come, come to think of it. She's absolutely right. There's a lot of relationship building, a lot of patching, mending fences, that kind of thing that happens in the hallways or the coffee maker that you, you just can't quite do the same way when everyone's working remotely. So definitely some food for thought. If you'd like to check out any of the links or resources mentioned within that conversation, you can check those out in the show, notes, engineering and leadership.com/episode 34. Next up we've got the engineering and leadership mailbag.

Host - Pat Sweet: Well, my friends, you know how this works, this is the part of the show where I read your messages and answer your questions. I promise to read absolutely everything you send me. And I promise to read my favorites right here on the podcast. Riley chute wrote me on LinkedIn to ask about professional development plans. Riley was recently encouraged to establish and pursue a professional development plan to help realize some potential that that management sees in Riley. So that's, that's great. That's a fantastic spot to be for management to come to you to say, Hey, we think you've got potential. We want you to actively pursue developing that potential. So that's great. Riley asked in part having no experience of professional development plans other than my previous military career, what should I expect and how should I approach it? Additionally, if the PDP has set out as a series of milestones or criteria to achieve, should I always aim to exceed what is expected if possible by that I'm super, super excited that your potential been recognized here.

Host - Pat Sweet: And I think you're asking really intelligent questions about professional development plans. There are, there are a lot of different ways to tackle PDPs, but in my experience, it ultimately boils down to two things. One is a set of concrete goals and two, a plan for achieving each of those goals. For example, a goal might be to achieve a particular professional designation within a certain timeframe. So for me, I had the goal of achieving my project management professional designation by July 31st, last year. So that, that was the concrete goal. A plan might be to attend certain courses or read books or engage in particular activities in support of that goal. So for me, it was to read through a couple of books. It was to sign up for some practice exams. There are a number of different things that I decided I wanted to do and pursue in, in support of that goal.

Host - Pat Sweet: So I'd be quite surprised if any professional development plan deviated too much from one of those two things. And, and plans may include things like formal training courses, reading mentorship on the job training, maybe less formal stuff. All of those, all of those are great. As long as they are in support of a particular goal, that's how you know you're done. So you don't want to be in a professional development plan where all that's there is, well, you should just job shadow Joe Smith for a little while. That's great. There's nothing wrong with job shadowing, but it ultimately should be in, in support of some concrete thing as with anything else. Exceeding expectations is obviously viewed favorably. What's more important in my mind, though, for professional development is that you show you are committed to your own growth, that you are taking ownership of your career and that you're investing your own time and energy into it.

Host - Pat Sweet: That that's speaks volumes about your character and your commitment to your profession. And maybe more importantly is is that you actually use what you learn in the workplace that you take this stuff, this investment that you've made and realize dividends as a result, because if you're able to do things that are faster, cheaper, higher quality, what have you, that will also turn heads that will be proof that the time and energy you've invested, or maybe the time and energy that the company has invested has been worthwhile. And then there's a snowball effect. Then they doubled down on this. Yeah, this guy is the real deal. The potential we saw, it really is there. And that's a virtuous cycle because the more you're able to apply what you learn, the more people are interested in developing and investing in you. So again, plans should have goals, sorry, professional development plans should have both goals and concrete plans for how to get there.

Host - Pat Sweet: And then really do focus time and attention on applying what you learned in the workplace to a reinforced learning. Be really show that you are the real deal. Again, Riley, super excited for you looking forward to hearing more about your journey. Next up, there was a review, which was great to see five-star reviews. So thank you very, very much for that. This was from Sarah Snyderman from South Africa. She said, great show. The host is very easy to listen to. Thank you very much there it's you can't see because it's podcasts, but I'm blushing a little bit and always interesting ideas and guests. So again, thank you so much for that. I really, really appreciate that Sarah. And finally, and I'm really, really excited about this. This is a note from Don Gillman, Don left a voicemail, which is awesome. And anyone can do this. You leave a voicemail. If you go to engineering and leadership.com/contact, there's a little widget there that you can use to record right from your phone or computer. And this is what Don had to say.

Speaker 4: How'd he pat Don Gilman calling from Texas. We touched base a few months ago back in the end of 2020. And I was at a career transition within my telecom and managed to leave what was left of the PMO. Do some technical work for a little bit, actually got to bend some code, which was a nice, refreshing change as well as leading technical team. And we delivered were acknowledged. And then I moved on to an M and a activity where for many, many months I've had no technology to deal with other than supporting SharePoint online, which is a really nice tool incidentally. And I keep looking around for the opportunity to get my hands dirty with dev again, development again, and sure enough our teams got to start developing some applications and nobody really knew how to do a software developers and I volunteered and nearly got tagged. So got bumped when I came over to this group in my w my role and my rank, and now get to enjoy M and a as well as get back into technology. So you have to know what you want and you need to work towards it, and your odds will improve. That's what I have to share with you. I am been listening religiously to your podcast and watching your business grow and think that you're doing a fine job and am happy for you.

Host - Pat Sweet: Thank you very much for the note, Don, again, really, really cool that you reached out like this. It's great to hear your voice super excited to have you here on the podcast. Congratulations on the promotion, the raise and, and the opportunity to do some development. I'm, I'm really happy for you. I'm really excited to see where your career's going and you gave some really good advice. I couldn't agree more about the importance of knowing what you want. If you don't know what you want, it's, it's all but impossible to pursue things that are going to be important and fulfilling for you. So I really, really do value that advice. Thank you so much, Don. Again, if you would like to reach out and leave a voicemail, just like Don, go to engineering and leadership.com/contact. If you don't want to use voice that's okay, too. You can leave a comment on the show notes or reach out to me on LinkedIn. No matter how you reach out. I am super excited to hear it from you.

Host - Pat Sweet: That is all the time we have for the show today. I'll be back next week with a new episode with mark Consella. Who's the vice president of engineering at open door where he and I will be discussing the importance of culture within engineering organizations. If you enjoy the show, please leave an honest review and let me know what you thought was most interesting from today's episode. This helps me make the show better and helps others find the show as well. For more information and links to the resources mentioned today, just go to the show notes@engineeringandleadership.com slash episode 34 until next time, this is pat sweet reminding you that if you're going to be anything, be excellent. [inaudible]

Speaker 5: Listening to the engineering and leadership podcast with pat sweet. If you'd like to learn more, go to engineering and leadership.com where you'll find more free articles, podcasts, and downloads to help engineers thrive. That's engineering and leadership.com.

Speaker 2: [Inaudible].